Curse

Gli · Jun 16, 2007, 09:46 PM // 21:46

When did fairness ever come into creating an even playing field?

Remember HoD swords? Boy, did some people get screwed there!

Remember attribute refund points? Should we require every starting player to use that old system until they hit 5,000,000 xp? Would only be fair wouldn't it? That how it was for me, after all.

Remember the material trader reset? Free gold for everyone who happened to be playing.

Remember rune prices before the drop rates changed? Boy do I feel stupid now for paying almost 100k for a superior absorption. And then they nerfed it!

Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

Fairness? Never! You win some, you lose some, and I sure hope I'm going to win this one.

Aera Lure · Jun 16, 2007, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

[etc.. etc.. etc]

All those things were fair because they affected all of us, whether we liked it or not. Some of us were unlucky in the timing of some of those things, but that's life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

You win some, you lose some, and I sure hope I'm going to win this one.

Not likely. You are, by definition of what you said in your examples, asking Anet to make a choice specifically being unfair to some of the players while favoring others. They either leave it as it is or, if its made retroactive, reimburse those who spent faction on the titles pre-change. Can you honestly see them doing that?

Lysander Freeman · Jun 16, 2007, 10:00 PM // 22:00

The people who donated faction to their Guilds and Alliances got their rewards - they edged closer to ownership of Outposts and several controlled those outposts for a while. That was the point of the whole thing!

I don't see why they would be given amber or jade as well - if THAT wouldn't be double rewarding, I don't know what is. So, what people are saying is that *money* is the only "reward"? Everyone got their rewards in one form or another. Oh... so is someone willing to relinquish control of House du Heltzer to me or any others who bought amber, a material reward, instead of controlling an outpost, a game play/mechanic reward? And didn't the controlling guild/alliances also profit monetarily from ownership of the outposts? They sure did!

Look at the Sunspear and Lightbringer points. They are based on faction/points earned. That's what the Kurzick and Luxon skills should be based on.

Nightfall did not have different options, heck, any options, on ways to *use* the SS and LB points for anything other than the Titles.

Aera Lure · Jun 16, 2007, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lysander Freeman

The people who donated faction to their Guilds and Alliances got their rewards - they edged closer to ownership of Outposts and several controlled those outposts for a while. That was the point of the whole thing!

That isnt a reward for donating to the title. That is a reward for being a member of a guild that owned a town. Most people who donated never saw any of that. Had less to do with the title than it did with the Alliance. It was simply the way the title worked at that time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lysander Freeman

I don't see why they would be given amber or jade as well - if THAT wouldn't be double rewarding, I don't know what is. So, what people are saying is that *money* is the only "reward"? Everyone got their rewards in one form or another. Oh... so is someone willing to relinquish control of House du Heltzer to me or any others who bought amber, a material reward, instead of controlling an outpost, a game play/mechanic reward? And didn't the controlling guild/alliances also profit monetarily from ownership of the outposts? They sure did!

Most people who worked on that title track at that time got nothing at all from it. Nothing. Except for title advancement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lysander Freeman

Look at the Sunspear and Lightbringer points. They are based on faction/points earned. That's what the Kurzick and Luxon skills should be based on.

Fine, but then you have to reimburse those who did not sell amber and jade if you are going to allow all those who did to also gain further points on the title track.

bilateralrope · Jun 16, 2007, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andisa Kalorn

I really don't like where this is heading. Sure, have your fow armor and tormented weapons and grind titles. But now grinding gives you an advantage over others? The LB skills were bad enough, but they're only useful in a few places, and still not as much of a grind to make effective. This is worse than rank elitism in HA. Rank doesn't actually make your skills better...

Especially since the reason I play guild wars instead of another MMO is because there isn't much grind here. But every time ANET adds more forced grinding, they erode that reason away.

Really, why does ANET want to force us to grind ?
For MMO's with a monthly fee I can understand it because the longer someone stays, the more money they pay. But for guild wars the more someone plays, the more it costs ANET (their bandwidth won't be free). The people who do enjoy the grinding will do it anyway, but for the people who don't doing this just pisses them off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadows Soul Reaper

I think them before the update that got amber/jade should get it back for there title as long as they give the gold they made from the amber/jade so it would be far for the ones who put in faction in there guild for the title the one who was not in it to make money from it as i know someone in my last guild who has 6 mil faction they put in the guild they could off got amber/jade and made a killing but they did it for the title not the money

1 - There are people currently buying discount lockpicks, then reselling them at a profit. But they can only do this if they are donating the faction.
2 - What price would you pick for the amber/jade ?
3 - How would ANET know how much faction was spent on amber/jade, and how much was lost due to being at the 10k cap and/or spending for the other faction ?
4 - The people who were after the title were doing so purely to show off that title (or the KOBD track).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vamis Threen

Ok, let me get this straight: in the good ol' days, the righteous gave away their faction and in the process accrued a title, whereas the greedy spent their faction on loot, which didn't give them a title. Fair enough.

How are the people donating their faction for either a title to show off, or to hold a town in a morally better position than those who spent on amber/jade ?

And considering the current amber/jade prices, its quite possible that some of the town holders are making more gold from lockpick reselling than they would from amber/jade sales.

Lysander Freeman · Jun 16, 2007, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera Lure

Most people who worked on that title track at that time got nothing at all from it. Nothing. Except for title advancement.

Fine, but then you have to reimburse those who did not sell amber and jade if you are going to allow all those who did to also gain further points on the title track.

Read that again, please.

"Look at the Sunspear and Lightbringer points. They are based on faction/points earned. That's what the Kurzick and Luxon skills should be based on."

I didn't mention it affecting the Title track. The donating faction to gain control of towns was *the* reason for the whole thing in the first place. Titles came later. If you didn't get anything from donating then perhaps you should have joined a guild where it could have?

This whole thing can EASILY be fixed by making the skills based on the faction earned. I repeat, the "skills" being based on faction earned.

Gli · Jun 16, 2007, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera Lure

All those things were fair because they affected all of us, whether we liked it or not. Some of us were unlucky in the timing of some of those things, but that's life.

You'll have to explain how some of those things are fair whereas this change wouldn't be, because I don't see it. All of those situations resulted in a not-so-very-great number of people feeling they got shafted and a lot of people being pretty happy about it. Exactly like what we're looking at here should this change occur.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera Lure

Not likely. You are, by definition of what you said in your examples, asking Anet to make a choice specifically being unfair to some of the players while favoring others. They either leave it as it is or, if its made retroactive, reimburse those who spent faction on the titles pre-change. Can you honestly see them doing that?

Well, first off, I'm not really asking for some free title-bar action. (I'm still at zero on both allegiances btw. If I'd donate anything at all I'd risk being kicked from my guild for being a dumbass... well not really, but I'd never hear the last of it.)

I just want a reasonable shot at these new skills without having to grind away for a few months. I don't care how they do it. I'd rather see them disconnected from the title entirely.

But to answer your final question, if the skills must be kept tied to the titles, yes, I fully expect them to retroactively base the titels on faction earned, not faction spent. After all, they did all those other things without regard for the people who'd feel victimized.

Aera Lure · Jun 16, 2007, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lysander Freeman

I didn't mention it affecting the Title track. The donating faction to gain control of towns was *the* reason for the whole thing in the first place. Titles came later.

Then the titles had nothing inherent to do with town ownership specifically, which is what I said.

Neo Nugget · Jun 16, 2007, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera Lure

All those things were fair because they affected all of us, whether we liked it or not. Some of us were unlucky in the timing of some of those things, but that's life.

Not likely. You are, by definition of what you said in your examples, asking Anet to make a choice specifically being unfair to some of the players while favoring others. They either leave it as it is or, if its made retroactive, reimburse those who spent faction on the titles pre-change. Can you honestly see them doing that?

Well they did it for the hero title track. Why not this one.

Aera Lure · Jun 16, 2007, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

You'll have to explain how some of those things are fair whereas this change wouldn't be, because I don't see it. All of those situations resulted in a not-so-very-great number of people feeling they got shafted and a lot of people being pretty happy about it. Exactly like what we're looking at here should this change occur.

Those things were "fair" because they affected everyone equally. One day we woke up and HoD swords were no longer anywhere near as valuble as they were the day before. True for each and every one of us. The day for the end of the HoD sword had simply come. It wasnt the end of my HoD sword's value while yours still retained it. Granted, some of us lost a lot more than others in the action, but that had nothing to do with Anet or that "nerf." It was simply you buying six when they could be crafted at HoD and my buying three off the open market at their peak value, for example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

Well, first off, I'm not really asking for some free title-bar action. (I'm still at zero on both allegiances btw.) I just want a reasonable shot at these new skills without having to grind away for a few months. I don't care how they do it. I'd rather see them disconnected from the title entirely.

Months? Have you ever earned 100k faction?

I never said, by the way, I thought it should be connected to the faction titles. its just a simple fact that it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

But to answer your final question, if the skills must be kept tied to the titles, yes, I fully expect them to retroactively base the titels on faction earned, not faction spent. After all, they did all those other things without regard for the people who'd feel victimized.

Those other examples affected eveyone equally. They were blanket actions - bam - HoD swords now have cheap variants and the value of all of them drop. Luck determined who made or lost as the result of the HoD sword, for example.

As I have said before, I am fine with that solution. Retroactivity if enacted needs to reimburse farmers then for what they could have sold in jade and amber.

Aera Lure · Jun 16, 2007, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo Nugget

Well they did it for the hero title track. Why not this one.

Because fame was simply that. You didnt have the option to apply it in one place or in another place.

Gli · Jun 16, 2007, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera Lure

Those things were "fair" because they affected everyone equally. One day we woke up and HoD swords were no longer anywhere near as valuble as they were the day before. True for each and every one of us. The day for the end of the HoD sword had simply come. It wasnt the end of my HoD sword's value while yours still retained it. Granted, some of us lost a lot more than others in the action, but that had nothing to do with Anet or that "nerf." It was simply you buying six when they could be crafted at HoD and my buying three off the open market at their peak value, for example.

But how is it different from: "One day we woke up and the Allegiance titles were based on Faction earned, not Faction spent. The Kurzicks and the Luxons realized that the actual act of fighting for them was more important than signing silly proclamations of allegiance." That would be true for everyone as well wouldn't it? And similarly, some people would have made some riches that others never had the inclinations or opportunity to. I never liked Factions much to begin with and going back there to grind is just out of the question for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera Lure

Months? Have you ever earned 100k faction?

I made 160k back in the day. Nowadays, I play 2 nights a week and occasional a bit longer during weekends. I barely have enough time to vanquish one area in one sitting. I could spend that little time obsessively farming for faction, but I could also just savage myself with a cheesegrater, rub in some salt and lemon juice, and have just as much fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera Lure

Those other examples affected eveyone equally. They were blanket actions - bam - HoD swords now have cheap variants and the value of all of them drop. Luck determined who made or lost as the result of the HoD sword, for example.

As I have said before, I am fine with that solution. Retroactivity if enacted needs to reimburse farmers then for what they could have sold in jade and amber.

As I said before, changing the titles from 'Faction spent' to 'Faction earned' would just be another example of a blanket change that only has a few people suffering from a missed opportunity to make some gold. No different from some of my examples. (Disregard the refund points if you must they weren't about gold and that's what this all seems to boil down to: people missing out on some gold.)

Aera Lure · Jun 16, 2007, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

I made 160k back in the day. Nowadays, I play 2 nights a week and occasional a bit longer during weekends. I barely have enough time to vanquish one area in one sitting. I could spend that little time obsessively farming for faction, but I could also just savage myself with a cheesegrater, rub in some salt and lemon juice, and have just as much fun.

Well, never said it would be fun.

Just didnt see it taking months. Please dont use the cheesegrater that way. Didnt you see the consumer warning label on the backside? I know. I dont read them either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

As I said before, changing the titles from 'Faction spent' to 'Faction earned' would just be another example of a blanket change that only has a few people suffering from a missed opportunity to make some gold. No different from some of my examples. (Disregard the refund points if you must they weren't about gold and that's what this all seems to boil down to: people missing out on some gold.)

Cashing in on the HoD sword thing was only an opportunity if you knew that was going to happen. That's how its different. As a hypothetical example no one knew of that nerf and no one took advantage. However, you're asking Anet to knowingly double reward those who cashed faction in while not reimbursing those who did not.

Kool Pajamas · Jun 16, 2007, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

When did fairness ever come into creating an even playing field?

Remember HoD swords? Boy, did some people get screwed there!

Remember attribute refund points? Should we require every starting player to use that old system until they hit 5,000,000 xp? Would only be fair wouldn't it? That how it was for me, after all.

Remember the material trader reset? Free gold for everyone who happened to be playing.

Remember rune prices before the drop rates changed? Boy do I feel stupid now for paying almost 100k for a superior absorption. And then they nerfed it!

Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

Fairness? Never! You win some, you lose some, and I sure hope I'm going to win this one.

Those are completely different. You had a choice. Amber/Jade or a title. Now you want all those people that chose to get amber/jade to also have a title while the people that chose a title to get nothing. Everyone had the choice. Either or. You dont deserve to get both while others dont. The people that chose titles did nothing wrong.

And again I have to say. I chose to donate for my TITLE. NOT for my alliance. None of my alliances were anywhere NEAR close enough to own a town. I did not ever donate faction in hopes of gaining a town. It was purely for the title. I gained zero besides a title. Now everyone wants to keep all the gold they gained plus get a title they didnt want before while I and others miss out on all the gold we COULD have gotten by doing it your way. If back then I knew that I would one day be able to exchange my faction for amber/jade AND get my title at the same time I would have gotten the amber/jade instead of donating. Same as how you didnt know you would be able to get both. But you chose amber/jade and I chose the title. Deal with it. You made the choice. I'd rather have gold then some crappy pve skill that I likely wont ever use.

Voltar · Jun 16, 2007, 11:06 PM // 23:06

even though i'm in the same spot (400k+ earned and like 100kish donated) i can see where the people who title-farmed the faction are coming from.

in some sense, the travel scrolls completely negate any benefit gathered from the title track. to give us credit for making money off jadeite and amber would be incerdibly disrespectful to the people that actually worked on the title before there was a reason to.

if you haven't played wow, then i'll let you in on a few things. disrespecting people's efforts is something that blizzard does in order to keep people grinding crap (which equals $15 a month). arenanet has gone out of theie way to create the ldoa title (which i can't confirm even exists but i'll play along for now) to reward people who went through an unreasonable amount of effort to death-level themselves in pre-searing (probably because the devs thought it was kinda clever how they did it).

that's 2 mutually exclusive attitudes from 2 completelely different development teams...it's also why i have spent more than an average of $15 a month on arenanet and $0 on blizzard.

i'll stop there because my normally, "long-winded," posts get a little more rediculous when i've had a little, "drinky-winky".

Gli · Jun 16, 2007, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera Lure

However, you're asking Anet to knowingly double reward those who cashed faction in while not reimbursing those who did not.

I'm not asking that, I'm just saying it would be perfectly in character for them to do so. Besides, is that any worse than 'double rewarding' the town-owners? That's what it's like now, they used their faction to own towns at some point, and now they get free skills.

The only people who'd have any right to complain are the people who solely donated to get a title. I'm willing to bet many of those people will also gain a substantial amount of title progress, because I don't believe many of them never got any jade/amber at all.

So, show of hands please: who among us donated every single point of Faction to an allegiance, just for the title, without the express goal of owning a town. You're the victims if this change is made. Raise your voices in protest! All twelve of you.

Draxanoth · Jun 16, 2007, 11:10 PM // 23:10

/Signed

This is a good idea. They already track total earned, redirect one pointer and you're done. Take like 5 seconds. If they're gonna force us to PVP they might as well reimburse us for the the trouble we've already gone to for armor.

Gli · Jun 16, 2007, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kool Pajamas

Those are completely different. You had a choice. Amber/Jade or a title. Now you want all those people that chose to get amber/jade to also have a title while the people that chose a title to get nothing. Everyone had the choice. Either or. You dont deserve to get both while others dont. The people that chose titles did nothing wrong.

Again, I don't want the title, I want reasonable access to the skills.

If you choose to ignore the other half of the story, there's a difference, yes. But as it turned out, people were making uninformed choices. It wasn't "amber or title" but it turned out to be "amber or skills (and a title but who cares)". People who didn't care about the title also did nothing wrong, but they're screwed out of the new skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kool Pajamas

And again I have to say. I chose to donate for my TITLE. NOT for my alliance. None of my alliances were anywhere NEAR close enough to own a town. I did not ever donate faction in hopes of gaining a town. It was purely for the title. I gained zero besides a title. Now everyone wants to keep all the gold they gained plus get a title they didnt want before while I and others miss out on all the gold we COULD have gotten by doing it your way. If back then I knew that I would one day be able to exchange my faction for amber/jade AND get my title at the same time I would have gotten the amber/jade instead of donating.

We've all made decisions we regret. I never had a HoD sword forged. Imagine the platinum I could've made if I'd know they'd be removed. Imagine the skills I could've had if I'd know the title mattered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kool Pajamas

Same as how you didnt know you would be able to get both. But you chose amber/jade and I chose the title. Deal with it. You made the choice. I'd rather have gold then some crappy pve skill that I likely wont ever use.

I couldn't care less about the gold. I'd have gone for the title if I'd know I'd get some skills fourteen months after the fact. But you can keep your title, I don't want it.

JeniM · Jun 16, 2007, 11:26 PM // 23:26

/signed I want my faction back !!!!

Lol after all these great things i couldn't care less if we get faction back or not but it would give me 100K boost

Amber adds to title + more tiers + new skills = I'm happy

Skuld · Jun 16, 2007, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marth Reynolds

/Signed

But probaly not gonna happen... Looks at wisdom and treasure hunter title :[
And if you think ppl in big alliance got nothing for those factions donated.. they have accsess to merchants with lower prices if they own a town, not to mention that a lot of them also ferried for donations.

that isn't possible, the game never tracked chests and IDs before, unlike fame and missions completed